He had no difficulty from the very beginning thinking that Borks mere intellect and his objective qualifications were somewhat beside the point. Bob was somebody that initially I recommended to Teddy, and he made the mistake of not hiring him. And this was before Kennedy made his somewhat intemperate statement about the America for. Obama cares about someones ability to appreciate where the rubber hits the road and how doctrine actually affects people in practical terms. Bob later on worked for Teddy a lot and wrote a lot of his best lines. She was born on September 7, 1941. He came in like a Granite State nominee; it took him a while to warm up. I cant say that Ive observed it myself over time. And that it was the Alito appointment that was the key one, not the Roberts appointment. Well, thank you very much. His staff was always incredibly impressive. The whole issue of privacy that goes behind that. There must have been a dozen or more over the years. I was regarded somehow as second only to Kennedy because of his dramatic statement about Robert Borks America, as the engineer of the opposition, probably wrongly. With Bork it was a combination of Teddy and Joe Biden asking me to work on it. Although I was very much in favor of him because I had read his stuff in New Hampshire and on the First Circuit, and I thought he was a very subtle, quite moderate-to-liberal guy, I had no idea how they could possibly have come up with him. Have they turned out the way you expected? Then versus subsequently. Comparatively so. How did he defeat himself in his own testimony? No services are scheduled at this time. I guess theres a sense in which hes been marginalized by things that have made it harder for him to press people hard on various issues. He really orchestrated everything, decided how the witnesses should go and in what sequence. From that point to 1980 when he gave this great speech that Bob Shrum wrote, that I was vaguely involved in helping to write, when he gave the speech at the Democratic Convention ending with, The dream shall never die, he was the guy that I thought would somehow carry on the tradition that I was so excited by. When I would testify before him on something, he would sort of veer off into saying, It would have been great if Bork had been confirmed; if we could have both you and Bork on the Court it would be much better than a Court with just these milquetoast people in the middle. He had done something at Meeses request during the Reagan campaign, I guess. I wouldnt attribute to him the kind of Pied Piper role of moving the country dramatically against its own instincts, but he was able to energize and coalesce those instincts in a powerful way. But in fact you could argue that Stevens may not have had complete conversion but. I participated in a few retreats. Ive got Joe Kennedy, Jr., Ethels [Skakel Kennedy] grandson, in my class now. I hadnt met him yet. You are so greatly missed, I'm forever heartbroken.
WebThe most Kreye families were found in USA in 1920. That would have been interesting, yes, but I was a kid at the time. They were going to be cautious and thoughtful but they would, for all practical purposes, gut Roe v. Wade and leave in place things like Griswold, only because they were monuments that could no longer be toppled. You have to wonder whether Sandra Day OConnor wishes, given what subsequently has happened with her husband, that she had waited a few months. Originally I didnt know that much about him. He has lived up to the hopes of at least some of the conservatives on issues of church and state, and a few others. While there that night, he quickly got to know another patient, Carolyn Kreye, a student at the Graduate School of Education. He was just his own worst enemy. That kind of thing. Obviously, [John] Sununu screwed up somehow. And thats pretty much where I am as well. For him, Roe v. Wade is like that. And he wanted lots of things. In any event, I told him I thought that the only way to oppose Bork was to be quite forthright about the way his values were not just far from the mainstream, but would generate a set of principles that would be dangerous to women and to minorities. I really liked working with his staff, but he would often call himself just to ask for my view of something. He was invited by the Premier of the Soviet Union, [Leonid] Brezhnev at the time, to do a tour through the USSR [Union of Soviet Socialist Republics], as it then was. So I cant take the slightest bit of credit for it, but I can say that I was ready to try. Tom Rollins was another. Where the real stakes were for him was when it got to the Supreme Court. It didnt stop me from testifying against Bork, when I thought that I would end up arguing in front of him anyway, but that was a time when I thought even though he was likely to be confirmed, there was still a hope; it was possible that he could be stopped. He did it well and he was well prepped, and he often had reasonably good follow-up questions, but that wasnt his greatest skill and that wasnt where he was at his best. There are many observers who said it was just way too dangerous for him. The case for him had to do with abstract principles. I have no idea how he did it but there was no surprise there for me. I said, I think he is just about as bad as you think. As I continue to pray, I will see you in heaven Carolyn. What do you think of them? Wow. Its very hard to know. You made such an impact on me as a 4th grader at St. John's. People really thought, No right of privacy, what does that mean? I would agree with you. A few years ago, Cass Sunstein and Kathleen Sullivan and I were all talking about the role of ideology in Court of Appeals appointments, and that was a Senate retreat in Virginia or somewhere; I cant remember exactly. I guess we should blend into Bork. There were things that related to the power of Congress to take steps that would enforce constitutional rights through the enforcement clauses of the Civil War Amendments. There are things he cared about that he just never dropped: civil rights, civil liberties, human dignity, healthcare, certain ideas of equality. I had no political connections, but I was at the Boston Garden when Jack Kennedy gave one of his great speeches during the campaign. Both John [F. Kennedy, Jr.] and Caroline [Kennedy Schlossberg] were there, and a priest and I. I can tell you one of the stories that is most moving for me, but it turned out not to have mattered. It wasnt enough that they have great instincts; they had to be really well armed. But it took a while for him to get there. That turns out not to be the case. Kennedy has an instinctive, clear sense that anybody who has doubts about Brown v. Board or who is tortured over womens equality is really not the kind of person that we should have on the Supreme Court, that kind of thing. Ms. Kreye was not only my teacher but my sister and brother teacher. You raise an interesting point, and that is, Who is being replaced at what stage?
He may have grown. Well, it raises that whole question that you talked about initially, that there are not surprise conversions on the Court. And it would have been both of them. 
Thats an obvious one. The 30-second sound bytes are definitely on the opposing side. Rector and Visitors of the University of Virginia, Attorney; Professor of Constitutional Law, Harvard Law School, Notice of Non-Discrimination and Equal Opportunity.
With Kennedy taking a backseat in the judicial confirmation hearings and focusing entirely on Labor and Human Services, it justThe recent hearings have been quite terrible, and theyve been terrible partly because Kennedy has not played much of a role. I dont know to what extent that cemented where they came out, but very quickly I agreed to testify for him. Part of what I did, for example, occasionally would have to do with healthcare. Id really like to know what you think about X or Y, and I would either tell him instantaneously or I would say, Let me give you a call back. Well, it was actually her children who had the effect on her. Bork would have been terribly dangerous, I mean, there would be no Roe v. Wade if Bork had been nominated. The Bork process itself was so exhaustive and intense that its sort of understandable that, having gone through all that, unless Reagan wanted to put his whole Presidency on the line for this, he would have retreated to some degree. He was not just a transactional politician, but someone with the ability to bring out what was latent in the country in a way that Kennedy could see, in a way that no one since his two brothers had been able to do. All of this airbrushed pablum that you get from Alito and Roberts, where they say, Oh, I cant comment on that because it would be too close to the issues that would come before me. There are people who have natural gifts in terms of analytical skills, who are intellectually lazy, or who dont focus their energies around really important issues and who take advantage of the fact that they are very quick and get the structural problem instantaneously. Add a Memory Send a note, share a Her second marriage was to DeForest Kelley on September 7, 1945. Have there been any similar staff recommendations that have not been accepted? He did a number of things that Bork wouldnt have done. Jackie [Onassis] was there. I imagine, as I suggested earlier, that Kennedys serious commitment to it pushed Biden very hard. I regarded him as just the most extraordinary student Id ever had. Ive sensed more constancy than evolution. The other ones would probably be: If you think that the Constitution is absolutely colorblind and that we cant pay attention to race in order to cure the problems of racism, then youre just on a different planet and you dont belong on the Court. It was a rehearsed exercise in which he wanted to get certain things on the record, wanted to make sure he covered certain bases. How did the Tom Rollins recommendation come about? Or, We have three people that the Senator might want to hire. Partly because of the opinion he had written about gays in the Navy, in whatever the context was. Did Kennedy? Text size. Ms. Kreye, for some reason, you came into my thoughts today. The idea of a moderate Republican Party just evaporated. He didnt really know very much about him. It fit his idea that when a President selects somebody in order to move the Court and the Constitution in a direction that a particular Senator conscientiously thinks is wrong, the Senator shouldnt hesitate to oppose on that ground. Yes. Im simply trying to illuminate his philosophy. And Kennedy took much more of a hostile approach. He has a philosophy about the Constitution as a growing set of protections for human dignity and a sense that its precise meaning is not fixed at any moment in time, and that claims about original intent are largely circular or empty and excuses for not protecting people who are vulnerable and need protection. It was so impressive.
As I always told you, "Because I knew you, I have been changed for the better, I have been changed for good." No, he wasnt at all. I think he has a coherent constitutional philosophy, which is deeper and broader than the question of the precise role that courts should play. I had the sense that this was a guy I would love to get to know. I think everybody in fact does, although people disclaim having litmus tests. Miss Kreye was my 4th grade teacher at St. John's in the 1969/1970 school year. Well, it was very interesting because when they really parsed his record, there were some issues that were of concern. Were not going to overturn Griswold v. Connecticut. But Id say there are a couple of them on which that observation might be relevant. Well, theres a lot in what you say here. Ive never once talked about Roe v. Wade. No, advise and consent, but then not publicly testified.
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Those he could deploy when he needed to, with the right talking points, but the real core was much more basic. Have you seen an evolution in him, in these core values? What makes Bork so much more dangerous than others? I dont think it was so much abortion. It basically said, We like your shining city on a hill, were happy to fight the Soviet Union and maybe even have some weird Star Wars program, and we like the Morning in America, but we dont like taking away the safety nets or the constitutional safety nets. I think it turned out to be a referendum on whether the country as a whole, and there were lots of polls being taken all the time, was ready to roll back the Warren revolution and roll back a Constitution that protected rights like privacy that were not enumerated, and to question one personone vote and much of the racial progress, including cases like Shelley v. Kraemer, involving racially-restricted covenants. May you rest in God's peace. I think he asked me, Well, what about all this stuff about how Presidents are surprised that Justices change? Or if you think Congress powers are so limited, that the Court made a wrong turn in 1937, and really the nine old men were right and the Congress should not have the broad power to regulate interstate commerceThose are several lone stars. Well, with Bork then, do you think that the process got shifted somewhat? If I were to be fully consistent with what I wrote in that little book, I might have voted the way Kennedy would have. The bottom line was that, for reasons quite independent of my opposition, although my opposition helped, Mildred Lillie sank like a stone, as did Herschel Friday, who was problematic for other reasons. To the extent that the Senate has an institutional memory about it, its become more part of the marrow of the Senate to realize that the pretence that this is all a matter of neutral, technical expertise, or something else that is devoid of perspective and ideological contentthat sense has been washed away pretty much. With heavy hearts, we announce the death of Carolyn Sue Shouse (Claremore, Oklahoma), born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, who passed away on March 21, 2023 at the age of In fact, he might never hear it, depending on his health. I think maybe Kennedy actually had a blurb on it. He was a dangerous man and his views did not belong on the Supreme Court. And thats the key difference. ads view current number. He was a research assistant and student of mine, and one of the best. I tend not to be very good at remembering the demographics or the political alignments and who had what majorities, but there wasnt the kind ofWe had a Democratic majority to oppose Bork.
Carolyn Susan Szczesiul, age 56, died peacefully surrounded by love on February 28. I think its not bad for there to be one or maybe two members of the Court like that, if there are also one or two real liberals. There were those who had taken courses with him who had found him quite engaging on a personal basis. We are sad to announce that on March 25, 2023, at the age of 81, Carolyn Kay Frye of Indianapolis, Indiana, born in Switz City, I cant remember whether Jeff Blattner was still there. Right. Yes, especially with Eunice and her kids and Sarge, although unfortunately now hes got pretty bad Alzheimers. It became a national seminar of things that people would ordinarily have seen as subjects for a law school seminar. Carolyn Osolinik was still there. I didnt think there was any possibility of stopping Alito. Copyright 2023. I dont know if he was surprised or not. Thats another one. Your handprint's on my heart, best friend. [Arlen] Specter was very frustrated. Right, but he made it dramatic by saying theres no difference between the governments power to tell you what to do in your bedroom and a governments power to tell a coal company what kind of coal to burn. Theres really nobody who could do what hes doing right now. There was a caseI think it was called DronenburgThere were two cases and both of them involved gays in the military: one was written by Bork; one was written by Kennedy. Kathleen had written only moderate things. So I think people really didnt oppose Rehnquist much. Since Biden was in charge of orchestrating the whole hearing, he was in some ways more central than Kennedy, but without Kennedys fire under the whole process, I dont think it would have happened. Which of course is ironic, even though we now have a President who has not only really smoked marijuana, but done more than that. You distinguish with Kennedy a difference between core constitutional values and a judicial philosophy. She was a 1963 graduate of Dieterich High School. In the case of Roberts, he was so affable and polished and smooth about presenting himself that it didnt really produce any vivid recognition of how much his views were just about as dangerous as those of Scalia or Bork, to the values that at least those people cared about. Hes had more reason to care about building coalitions and been less willing to be idiosyncratic and simply follow a lone trajectory. With Nina Totenbergs journalism, he sank before anyone could really focus on him. Right, thats right. So not a full-court press. Carolyn was born on And you get Kennedy effectively silenced. The Dignity Memorial brand name is used to identify a network of licensed funeral, cremation and cemetery providers that include affiliates of Service Corporation International, 1929 Allen Parkway, Houston, Texas. She was a Yes. But its again the intersection between politics and Presidential intent, where you start off with someone where there are either competency issues, or theres a mindless ideologue, one side or the other, and its, Who do you end up with? With Kennedy it was a little less formal. It was a very tricky situation. Oh no, nothing like that. And sometimes you end up with a good one and sometimes you dont. But I think he would have been a very powerful force for a very retrogressive view of the Constitution, not an unintelligent view but one that really would have eliminated its capacity to embrace fundamental human rights. Hes still very progressive, very liberal. I think he believes much more that the government can provide neutral aid in a form that indirectly benefits religious entities, along with others, as long as it doesnt become entangled in the details of religion or provide direct support to religious institutions. Yet, in that sense, this is what it should be. He is more extreme than [Antonin] Scalia, and more rigid. Deepest sympathies to her family.Carol Tirado Tiltti, July 18, 2017 | River Dale, NY | Student. When he first got on the Court, he was very cautious about a number of things, and in fact there was one case that I argued and lost in the Court, that Im quite confident would have come out the other way two or three years later. What I said gave him kind of an intellectual armature within which to fit it. You get, Oh, my God, weve had two where youve got ideology and racism and competency issues.
Carolyn Ann Gonzales Freire peacefully passed away on November 28, 2022. Did you consult on Alito and Roberts? He didnt have a programmatic desire to dismantle decades of precedent.
Because Roe v. Wade is so controversial and such a flashpoint, those who opposed him shifted it into, as you said, a bigger issue that resonated with the public. Theres no Brennan, theres no Marshall, theres no [Harry] Blackmun. Did you participate in a retreat? But that was not the most conspicuous piece of his entire oeuvre. Carolyn, you had such a big heart and wonderful smile! I was going to testify and he would surely be confirmed and I would be arguing in front of him, and why did I need to piss him off any more than otherwise? He just was a bad witness and he couched his answers in ways that were more frightening than reassuring. To go after Thomas, that not just being black, but the whole sex thing just was a minefield potentially for him to wade into, and so his voice was in many ways effectively stilled. It really wasnt a similar effort. Well, it could be, because there were a lot of times when I was asked to advise in some very limited way over some weekend, what did I think of something, and I would write a quick thing. Or are there any qualities that he would view in a nominee that are disqualifying? What about the issue of privacy and unenumerated rights? Theres perhaps a pretense that we should just look at talent or intellectual quality and not worry about the point of view, but theres a recognition that thats impossible. Dearing- Carolyn Key, 81, passed away on February 20, 2022, at her home in Dearing, Georgia, after a brief illness with cancer. I really think people thought that he would not protect the right of birth control. If he had felt freer to press the way he would have instinctively pressed, it would have been better. What do you think of this and that? But not having been present at most of those conversations, I really cant speak to that. Right now there are no liberals. I wasnt as good a vote-counter, I guess. He pulled together a number of people: me and Cass Sunstein and Kathleen Sullivan and several others, to go down and have dinners with him, long, long dinners and conversations in McLean, where we would go over all of the issues in great detail. We thought it would be kind of cool. He has a fairly clear sense of the importance of certain core constitutional values about free speech and equality, but they dont translate into detailed doctrinal tests and all this stuff about whether you use strict scrutiny or some other kind of scrutiny for something. I dont think it was inevitable until JuneWhat was it? A few times, but I dont remember particular ones. His own testimony made him seem so scary. I was saddened to find that you passed away. Given the background that he came from, and the fact that even with his own family. Yes, although I had no idea he would write so obscurely and all but incomprehensibly. Ive never gotten over the sense of enormousI cant avoid thinking of him as one of the two or three greatest Senators in American history, and so whenever he wants help, I feel privileged to be helping him. In those early years, prior to Bork, did he ask you at any point to testify? Lets talk about what we have seen as his core constitutional values. And it wasnt an awkward fit when you think about it. How important was Ted Kennedy to that process? But I guess by the time he was nominated, I had become more of a pragmatist about these issues and I thought, Who are we going to get thats better? Arrangements under the direction of Joseph G. Duffy, Brooklyn, NY. But he had already decided. He clearly was something of a conservative. This memo made it to the front page of the Washington Post in an article by Jack McKenzie. Healthcare would sometimes intersect with constitutional issues. Sure. No, but the point is that some of them could have been on the Supreme Court. Have you maintained your relationships with the extended Kennedy family? Not the right 30-second sound byte. You will live on in my heart, mind & soul. He was terrible. And the way he would really think through things, even though he didnt necessarily have the raw intellectual horsepower to make them easy. Hes thoughtful, subtle, and not a firebrand. Mrs. Cotner was born in Chatham County on January 4, 1940, daughter of AJ and Ruby Willette Andrew. Yes, flag burning. We arrived, and I remember not really having seen the Senator before in any setting other than on television, and he was mixing drinks or something and we walked into this place and there he was. I havent really focused on what others expected. That could be, but I guess the point is, I dont think Kennedy thought to himself, Im going to paint Bork as more of an ogre than he is, in order to move political opinion. Its possible, but I cant remember any. I know he called Ralph Neas and a lot of other people, and was in constant contact with them. I had somehow impressed him in a meeting or two at Fried, Frank, where he was a partner, and he invited me, the only non-family member apart from a priest, who went with him and Eunice [Kennedy Shriver] and Bobby [Sargent Shriver, III] and Timmy [Shriver] and Maria [Shriver] and the whole clan. I dont know whether Mike Deaver and others were deeply enough involved. And shes obviously very distressed about Alito and about whats happened to the Court. And oddly, I thought from the beginningthis is an odd prediction but I kept making it quite publicly to my law studentsthat he was going to be the decisive vote in overruling Bowers v. Hardwick, which is a case that I lost, arguing on behalf of gays back in 1986 when Powell was the decisive vote. To advise and consent. I would sometimes come down to D.C. and talk to him. No, but hes just become much more effective. What I admire most about him is the extraordinary wayhow much he made of what he had. There seemed to be this scary dude with a funny beard who said, I think your rights are an inkblot. And [Stephen] Stevie Smith, Jr., and a few others. I think I have made a contribution notwithstanding the fact that I was pretty much ruled out for the Court by making the enemies I did when I testified against Bork. Let others know about your loved one's death. Arrangements under the direction of Joseph G. Duffy, Brooklyn, NY. It was kind of a symbiotic process too, in which they knew that they had a champion in him that made it sensible for them to put all kinds of energy and money into the process.
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