Then we had a second one that was on the market in Paris as sort of "circle of van Dyck," but as soon as I saw it, I recognized that it was the real deal. I mean, not because it wasit was cheap. My father got me fired. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And Worcester was once a city of, you know, nine millionaires, and those millionaires supported the museum. Yeah. And, you know, we were talking yesterday about the Museum of Science. I remember reading his book, just because it was there. You know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, no. CLIFFORD SCHORER: and we put a Reynolds. [00:28:03], JUDITH RICHARDS: Was your business background also important to them? Or. [They laugh.] And now the painting hangs at the Worcester Art Museum so it can be seen, and basically, you know, after all of that gunk was stripped off, the painting that emerged is extraordinary, so we're very excited.

[Laughs.] And, you know, there was a day when Agnew's had 40 employees and a full building in London and, you know, exhibitions going on 24-7 and had printmaking exercises, had contemporary artists doing things. It's the Dutch, rather than the Japanese.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, yeah, I think it'sI think we are scaled right now for the market we're in. Without having someone who could actually be front and center, running the business, I would not have purchased the company. The circle was so small that you were sitting at a table with everybody that could be interested in that same object, at the same table, and you could actually talk to all of them. You know, it clouds my view of the artwork. CLIFFORD SCHORER: No, not really. And that's reallythat was more of, you know, expanding the things that I could do. And, you know, for example, Anthony decided he wanted to do a Lotte Laserstein show. There can beyou know, that's much more of a contemporary problem. JUDITH RICHARDS: Have you encountered any of those with the works you've acquired? I mean, in the smaller Eastern European museums back in the early '80s, when they weren't making any money, and nobodyyou know, they were pretending to work, and they were pretending to pay them, and nobody cared. I mean, the boothjust one masterpiece after another. Sometimes they're inverted, but almost universally they're. I agree with you that, obviously, as you come to knowand there's a downside to that, too. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, an art handler to move things around. I think I've alwaysyou know, coming from stamps, where it's engraved image, going to Chinese porcelain, where I'm focused on the allegorical story or the painting on the plate, you know, the progression isobviously, I took a little detour in perfection of, sort of the monochrome and celadons of the Ding ware of the Song dynasty. It's okay. So those were always fun and, again, because a Crespi comes top of mind, there were three Crespis that came up that I was able to buy and reattribute to Crespi, and now they're accepted. JUDITH RICHARDS: This must've been extremely difficult for your family as well as you. And [00:14:03]. CLIFFORD SCHORER: too much of a philistine, but obviously economics play a role in my thinking when Ilet me rephrase it, so that I seem less a charlatan.

Is your name Jim?" I wanted somebody who had been in the market for a long time, who had great relationships with people, that sort of thing. Let's see. WebIhr Fachgeschft fr fussgerechtes Schuhwerk. JUDITH RICHARDS: And there are fewer young. You know, I'd justI would just go there.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: Every year, there's a new sort of thing on the horizon. So part of what you were studying wasn't just the work; it was the market. Or maybe donating it, if that was that quality? [00:50:00]. So I've sold off most of my warehouses. JUDITH RICHARDS: And have you spoken to other contemporary artists who look back to various aspects of the Old Masters as inspiration? Absolutely. So I was. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. ", I mean, one experience like that was seeing Ribera in the Capodimonte when the room where the Ribera was was closed, and so I had to negotiate with this very large Italian woman who was blocking the entrance to the room to say, "Look, I came to see that painting." So it would have been a matter of, "If you're not available to me, that's fine; I won't do the project." You could put together quite an impressive-feeling collection. clifford schorer winslow homer. JUDITH RICHARDS: So the only alternativeif the person can be convincedis if you just offer them cash to buy it, and then you have a part of your inventory. And I think, giventhe market history had sullied the picture. I wish I had. Then we did the Lotte Laserstein, the Weimar German show, where we borrowed from the German state institutions for the first time ever, as I understand it, as a private gallery, borrowed from museums, Berlin specifically. These are salient works in, you know, in the catalogue, and these are works that the gallery had a historical involvement with in the 19th century. I don't know exactly how long, but he lived a long time. And, I mean, it's an enormous orbit. The sort of ante terminus that I'm sure of is March 11th of 1983, the day I started Bottom Line Exchange Company and filed for my papers. [Laughs.]. So, no, I didn't look to the collection to fund the next wave of the collection. JUDITH RICHARDS: Having that expand? I don't remember which one. It was called the Professors ProgramUniversity Professors Program. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You're putting a value judgment on it that I, you know, I'm uncomfortable making entirely myself. You know, obviously, I feel that way about some of the greatest Renaissance masters, but that's just not going to happen. Anyway, I bought her lunch, and I got to go into the room. JUDITH RICHARDS: That just gives me a [laughs] direction. So what I had done was I worked for Gillette for a while. CLIFFORD SCHORER: no, no, I agree. JUDITH RICHARDS: Yeah, yeah. [00:30:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. JUDITH RICHARDS: late teens. And so, they're walking away from that equation with a very large amount of money, "And your picture is going to be part of a catalogue with 160 pictures in it.". The galleries in New York are closing that sell old art, because they're retiring. I meansomething very strangebut nothing, no art. So you've gotyou can put them side by side. You know, they can figure outso, JUDITH RICHARDS: I think I came across the name Schorer. So we went down thereat 13, when he moved down there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I lovethat's something I did start doing in 2008. I think the problem was it was the overlap between business and art that made it difficult for them to manage the institution. They said, "If you take the car, you'll be murdered." And so, you know, they would see me enough eventually that I would get to know them. [Affirmative.] They told me the price range was 5 to 6 million, I believe, and I thought that was odd that they would quote a price range. And I have it at home to remind myself of what an absolutely abysmal painter I am and to really, you know, bring homeyou know, I always think I can put myI can do anything I put my head to. [Laughs.] He bought the [Frans] Snyders HouseSnyders is the artist. [00:31:59]. JUDITH RICHARDS: at the very beginning. In other words, they were things that wouldn't have been brought to me, and certainly wouldn't have been brought to me at the wholesale level, so to speak, and I couldn't have bought them by myself because of the dealer profit involved.

CLIFFORD SCHORER: Oh, I've alwaysI don't know. CLIFFORD SCHORER: So, it, you knowit's been very, JUDITH RICHARDS: They recognize your interest, the.

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That's fun. Came back to public school in Massapequa, Long Island, because that was the most convenient homestead we could use, and failed every class. CLIFFORD SCHORER: no, my father lived in New York. ], And in the Chinese export world, it wasn't quite that. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And when they came into the market and destroyed the marketa reason that I left the market for good in about 20072006, 2007when they started to sort of manipulate, you know, the auction market, I stopped buying, but I had accumulated quite a nice collection of Imperial things. And we would oftenyou know, we would find that in even a five-word conversation we understood what each of our aesthetics was and, you know, how we felt about different things that we were potentially going to bid against each other on. CLIFFORD SCHORER: There weren'tthere weren't. Yes, there are big, big changes. CLIFFORD SCHORER: I think, you know, my life is here in the States, and, you know, Ithe fortunate thing is that I haven't quit my day job, because if I relied uponbecause the gallery is an unevena very uneven cash flow. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you're in New York, for example, what are the specific places you most love to go to look at art? CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. I would just go up and talk to them, and we would talk for half an hour, and I'd walk away. In Chinese export, the beauty of it, to me, was there were interesting subjects in the paintings. But I don't think she'sI think she's not an Italian native. We do TEFAF New York, TEFAF Maastricht, Masterpiece. The National Gallery of Art, which houses Home, Sweet Home, has referred to Homers independence from artistic conventions.Indeed, Homers resistance to influence from foreign artists and movements is another key to the scholarly verdict of his Americanness. [00:08:03], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Chris Apostle from Sotheby's. T here is a painting in this magnificent survey of the American realist Winslow Homer (1836-1910) that is as frightening as anything you will see in a gallery. It's a crazy catastrophe of storage. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. And I think, in a way, my art world is still centered in London a little bit. So you've got another decoupling. CLIFFORD SCHORER: And I was in the first year of it. [00:44:00], CLIFFORD SCHORER: But generally speaking, those didn't show up at most of these estate sales. CLIFFORD SCHORER: You don't often find neglected objects, but luckily, this one was neglected because it was so recently found, and now it's sort of risen to the top of the pile immediately. JUDITH RICHARDS: and what it stood for. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Total coincidence. I don't know where that came from, but it was an instinctive sense. JUDITH RICHARDS: because most of the material was only sold at auction? I don't know that I ever, CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes, no, no, other than going there and looking at things. [Laughs. CLIFFORD SCHORER: early panel paintings in New England, for example. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Gallery exhibition, or that take the gallery in ayou know, in the direction that Anthony wants us to steer. So, yes. JUDITH RICHARDS: When you werewhen you were talking about Amsterdam and Antwerp, I was thinking about the fact that your mother was originally of Dutch. And he started me on collecting, actually. I'm also sendingwherever there is some scholarly interest, I'm sending them out to museums, so that somebody puts a new mind on them, puts a new eyeball on them. And I've been in Boston ever since. But I wouldn't have purchased the ongoing operation of the business. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yes. And, you know, you have this big triangle already. After colonial service in Jamaica and Hong Kong, the Blakes retired to Myrtle Grove in Youghal, County Cork, Ireland. He and I. So those areyou know, those are fun. ", CLIFFORD SCHORER: And then there are moments when something will pop up unexpectedly, like the Campbell's Soup family, the Dorrance family. There's an understanding of what they need; there's an understanding of what they want. You know, it was this incredibly complex. Have they always been. You know, bags full of them. Like, get a sense of what it meant to him? JUDITH RICHARDS: Outside of the United States? So I went along with it because, you know, I thought, Okay, I'll get some [00:01:59]. So think about it from that perspective. And a very helpful dealer in Spain finally made the last connection to find the actual apartment. Summary: An interview with Clifford Schorer conducted 2018 June 6-7, by Judith Olch Richards, for the Archives of American Art and the Center for the History of Collecting in America at the Frick Art Reference Library of The Frick Collection, at the offices of the Archives of American Art in New York, New York. And I'm saying, "That can't be possible. CLIFFORD SCHORER: But I think, in the past, they've been pretty good in the most important areas. I think that what people said to me back then, because it was a different kind of marketplace, wasit was all about market strategy. And, you know, from there I was able to turn more of my attention. [00:46:00]. So I got in my car and I drove over there at lunchtime, and I walked through the whole building, and literally, there was nobody there. I mean, a story I'm obsessed with is theis the German scientist who invented the nitrate process for fertilizer, because in his hands lies the population explosion of the 20th century. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Spent one year there. CLIFFORD SCHORER: Yeah. If I saw something in the shop, I would buy it. Steel Herman Miller partitions from the early '80s were still there. Schorer also describes his discovery of the Worcester Art Museum and his subsequent work there on the Museum's board and as president; his interest in paleontology and his current house by Walter Gropius in Provincetown, MA; his involvement with the purchase and support of Agnew's Gallery based in London, UK, and his work with its director, Anthony Crichton-Stuart; his thoughts on marketing at art shows and adapting Agnew's to the changing market for the collecting of Old Masters; the differences between galleries and auction houses in the art market today; and his expectations for his collection in the future. [00:34:02], CLIFFORD SCHORER: Well, that touches on another one of my collecting areas, actually. I assumed, like most Eastern European cities that are on the antiquities tour, that most of the great things were moved to the capitals. It's astonishing. The mark is often apocryphal. I wrote in English and I got a response in English, so. And then he had a very complete American collection. You have to understand, I think, that at the core it's about the object for me; it's about theit's about the artwork. So it is veryyes, you know, you have to put the, you know, the benchmarks of pricing in their histories, but now that I'm in the trade, which is a very different perspective, I have to take those shackles off a bit because I think like an old man, like every old man. CLIFFORD SCHORER: It was a good, you know, three or four years of financing deals that, you know, I found particularly exciting and interesting, and the paintings that we were ablethat I was able to sort of touch in an abstract way were paintings I could never otherwise touch. [00:32:01]. But I'm pleased that I was lucky enough to be at the right moment in history, where the relative scholarship might have been weaker than it could otherwise have been, which would allow me to find a rather large gap in the fence through which I could walk, if you see how careful I'm trying to be.

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